【雙語】中國駐英大使劉曉明BBC專訪實(shí)錄

圖為中國駐英國大使劉曉明

背景介紹：

劉曉明(1956年-)，廣東揭陽人，中國外交官。畢業(yè)于大連外國語學(xué)院英語系，曾在美國塔夫斯大學(xué)學(xué)習(xí)。2001年至2003年間擔(dān)任中國駐埃及大使，2006年至2010年間任中國駐朝鮮大使。2010年，接替傅瑩擔(dān)任中國駐英國大使。

新聞之夜是BBC電視二臺知名時(shí)政類訪談節(jié)目，以深度分析和激烈辯論著稱，在英政界和知識界影響廣泛。主持人帕克斯曼系英國資深記者和評論家，在新聞之夜任主持人已逾二十年。

駐英大使劉曉明新年期間接受BBC晚間新聞節(jié)目Newsnight主持人帕克斯曼(Jeremy Paxman)專訪。訪談?dòng)葿BC Two 于10:30PM Mon, 23 Jan 2012 播出。訪問部分全長7分鐘。

采訪實(shí)錄：

Jeremy Paxman: Happy New Year! Mr. Ambassador.

帕克斯曼：大使先生，新年好!

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: Thank you.

劉大使：新年好!

Jeremy Paxman: Let’s try to define our terms. Are you a communist?

帕克斯曼：您是一個(gè)共產(chǎn)主義者嗎?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: Well, in China, the ruling party is the communist party. The communist party now has more than 80 million party members. But you have to remember China is a country with 1.3 billion people. So I don’t think you can call China a communist country, just as you can not call the UK conservative UK.

劉大使：中國共產(chǎn)黨在中國是執(zhí)政黨，擁有超過8000萬黨員。但是中國有13億人口，因此不能說中國是共產(chǎn)黨國家，就像不能說英國是保守黨國家一樣。

Jeremy Paxman: But you could call the UK a capitalist country.

帕克斯曼：但可以說英國是資本主義國家。

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: And we say China is a socialist country. We could call China a socialist country with Chinese characteristics.

劉大使：中國是社會主義國家，實(shí)行的是中國特色的社會主義。

Jeremy Paxman: Talking to the young people, in particular in Beijing, I very strongly got the impression that they were pretty optimistic about China’s international role. They saw this as a century which was developing very much in a way that was going to make China a much more significant force in the world. Do you think that?

帕克斯曼：我不久前去北京采訪，與不少年青人交談。給我留下深刻印象的是，他們對中國在國際上發(fā)揮的作用很有信心，認(rèn)為中國將成為21世紀(jì)一支不斷崛起的重要力量。你也這么認(rèn)為嗎?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: China will certainly contribute its part for maintaining peace and prosperity of the world. But we do not see China as a superpower. I would characterize China as the largest developing country with increasing international influence and responsibilities.

劉大使：中國為世界和平和繁榮做出越來越大的貢獻(xiàn)，但我不認(rèn)為中國是一個(gè)超級大國。應(yīng)該說，中國是一個(gè)國際影響力和國際責(zé)任都在不斷擴(kuò)大的最大的發(fā)展中國家。

Jeremy Paxman: But people look at what China does on the UN Security Council, for example, over the question of—you opposed the sanctions on Syria, sanctions on Iran, and they wonder, you know, what you are trying to achieve?

帕克斯曼：但人們不理解中國在聯(lián)合國安理會的所做所為，如中國反對制裁伊朗和敘利亞。人們在問，中國的目的是什么?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: That’s not the right impression. In fact, China voted four times with other members of the Security Council on the issue of Iran. China is strongly opposed to Iranian nuclear weapon programme. But on the other hand, we believe diplomatic and peaceful solution is the most beneficial solution to the problem. It costs less and it’s in the interest of maintaining peace and stability in the region.

劉大使：這種看法并不正確。中國曾四次投票支持聯(lián)合國安理會涉伊核問題決議。我們明確反對伊朗擁有核武器。但與此同時(shí)，中方認(rèn)為，通過外交手段和平解決伊核問題才是最佳途徑。和平解決的代價(jià)最低，而且有利于維護(hù)地區(qū)的和平穩(wěn)定。

Jeremy Paxman: But do you accept that Iran is a potential threat to world peace, a nuclear armed Iran?

帕克斯曼：中方是否認(rèn)為伊朗擁核會對地區(qū)和平穩(wěn)定構(gòu)成潛在威脅?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: I would say, yes, Iran with nuclear weapons is not in the interest of peace and stability in the region. So that is why China made it very clear from day one that we are strongly opposed to Iran developing nuclear weapons. That has been reaffirmed by Chinese premier in his recent visit to the region.

劉大使：一個(gè)擁有核武器的伊朗不利于地區(qū)和平與穩(wěn)定。所以中方從一開始就明確反對伊朗發(fā)展核武器。溫家寶總理不久前訪問海灣國家時(shí)再次重申了這一立場。

Jeremy Paxman: So why not impose sanctions, then?

帕克斯曼：那么為什么不能制裁伊朗?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: There are already sanctions in place. But we don’t think sanction for the sake of sanction serves the purpose. We also encouraged peaceful negotiations to engage Iran for a peaceful settlement of this issue.

劉大使：現(xiàn)在已有制裁措施在實(shí)施之中。但我們反對為了制裁而制裁。這樣做徒勞無益。我們鼓勵(lì)各方與伊朗通過外交談判以和平方式解決有關(guān)問題。

Jeremy Paxman: Do you think China has a moral role in the world?

帕克斯曼：你認(rèn)為中國在世界上能夠發(fā)揮道義作用嗎?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: I think China has a role to play, in terms of building a more peaceful, harmonious world.

劉大使：我認(rèn)為，中國在維護(hù)世界和平、構(gòu)建和諧世界方面能夠發(fā)揮自己應(yīng)有的作用。

Jeremy Paxman: But what do you try to promote? The United States, for example, says it promotes, and will go to war, to promote democracy. What do you try to promote?

帕克斯曼：中國在國際上主張什么?想推動(dòng)實(shí)現(xiàn)什么?比如美國為了推行民主不惜發(fā)動(dòng)戰(zhàn)爭。中國想推行什么?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: We are promoting a harmonious world. We believe the world will be more peaceful, prosperous, if all countries respect each other, rather than imposing their own ideas and systems onto others. We believe mutual respect, mutual accommodation and working together for the common good, common security is in the interest of peace and stability of the world. So we are strongly opposed to any military solutions.

劉大使：中國致力于構(gòu)建和諧世界。我們主張國與國相互尊重、相互包容，而不是把自己的價(jià)值觀和社會制度強(qiáng)加給別人，這樣的世界才更加和平，更加繁榮。我們主張世界各國攜手努力，保障各國共同安全與福祉，維護(hù)世界和平與穩(wěn)定。我們堅(jiān)決反對在國際事務(wù)中訴諸武力。

Jeremy Paxman: What about economic power? China sits on this mountain of trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange. What’s that for?

帕克斯曼：現(xiàn)在我們來談?wù)勚袊�的�?jīng)濟(jì)實(shí)力。中國現(xiàn)在擁有數(shù)萬億美元的外匯儲備，這么多錢干什么用?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: What’s that for?? China is still a relatively poor country. Though China now is number two in terms of GDP, after only the United States. But in per capita GDP, China is still behind 100 countries. There are still about 700 million people living in the countryside. And there are about 150 million people living under one US dollar a day, that is the UN poverty line. So there is an enormous responsibility for the Chinese government to improve livelihood of those parts of the population of China.

劉大使：What’s that for?? 中國仍然是一個(gè)相對不富裕的國家。雖然中國的經(jīng)濟(jì)總量僅次于美國，居世界第二。但中國人均GDP在全球仍排在100位以后。中國仍有近7億人生活在農(nóng)村。按照聯(lián)合國每天1美元的貧困線標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，中國仍有1.5億人生活在貧困線之下。脫貧致富、改善民生仍是中國政府的重要職責(zé)。

Jeremy Paxman: And let’s talk a little bit about that difficult matter of human rights. Ai Weiwei, the well known artist, says that without free speech, you are living in a barbaric world. Do you understand what he’s getting at?

帕克斯曼：現(xiàn)在談?wù)勅藱?quán)這個(gè)棘手問題。知名藝術(shù)家艾未未曾說，缺乏言論自由的世界是蠻荒之地。你是否能理解他在說什么?

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: I think Ai Weiwei has his freedom to express his view. Otherwise how could you get his opinion on this?

劉大使：艾未未并不缺乏言論自由，否則，怎么知道他講了什么?

Jeremy Paxman: Unfortunately, he has been in prison of course, isn’t it?

帕克斯曼：不幸的是，他的言論使他遭受牢獄之災(zāi)。

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: No, he was under investigation on suspicion of evading tax, destroying his accounting books. In any country of rule by law, you have to respect and abide by the law. Nobody in a country ruled by law should be above the law. So even a so-called well-known artist has to abide by the law. When he violates Chinese law, he should be punished. There’s no doubt about that in China, I guess it’s the same in Britain.

劉大使：你的說法不對。事實(shí)是，他曾因涉嫌逃避繳納巨額稅款、故意銷毀會計(jì)憑證等犯罪行為而受到調(diào)查。在任何法治國家，公民都需要尊重、遵守法律，沒有人可以凌駕于法律之上，即使所謂知名藝術(shù)家也不例外，觸犯了法律，就要受到法律的制裁。這在中國如此，在英國恐怕也是一樣。

Jeremy Paxman: He should be free to say what he likes, shouldn’t he?

帕克斯曼：但艾未未應(yīng)該有自由表達(dá)言論的權(quán)利。

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: If he is forbidden to voice his opinions, how could you get to know them?

劉大使：對這一點(diǎn)我已經(jīng)說過了，如果艾未未沒有自由表達(dá)言論的權(quán)利，你怎么會知道他的言論?

Jeremy Paxman: All right, Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much.

帕克斯曼：非常感謝劉大使接受采訪。

Ambassador Liu Xiaoming: Thank you for having me.

劉大使：也非常感謝你們的邀請。

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